Many feared dead after Israeli strikes in Gaza

If Mexico acted like Hamas and fired dosens of rockets into San Diego, I would hope that Obama would have no less of a responce thanIsraiel had. Hamas was asking for it. They broke a cease fire, acted agressively in the face of peace and you expect the world to cut them slack! What if you and your child were walking down the street and a bully came up and repeatedly knocked your kid to the ground and kicked him? Would you just use keep trying to convince the the bully to be nice or jump in and defend your child?

well San Diego isn't holding Mexico under a ruthless military occupation.

DOZENS, where are you blogging from,  maybe a hilltop settlement.

Israel left Gaza in 2005 after a 38-year occupation, but the withdrawal did not lead to better relations with Palestinians in the territory as Israeli officials had hoped.

Instead, the evacuation was followed by a sharp rise in militant attacks on Israeli border communities that on several occasions provoked harsh Israeli military reprisals.

the cole was attacked as it was docking, it hadn't even tied up yet.  who had that intelligence?

Mossad.  Learn some history, USS liberty maybe.

9/11  was 100% mossad israeli operation.  5 dancing Israelis, Larry Silverstein , huntleigh intl,  Israelis were all over it.  Maybe it was just a jewincidence, probably not.  Who ran security at the WTC, an Israeli company.  Who ran security at the airports, an Israeli company. etc etc etc   .................

www.911missinglinks.com 

who gained from 9/11 Israel, who lost arabs.    

WHO BENEFITS?

'by way of deception, thou shall make war' motto of Mossad, Israeli intelligence service

Oh, get a rubber room.

Hadenough, you truly are a prejudiced piece of work as many of your posts have demonstrated.  I bet you even have informants in US Intelligence who feed you information about the workings of the Israeli Secret Service.  Conspiracy advocates of your ilk need to be on major antipsychotic medications.  Might you be Muslim, Arabic, or just a run-of-the- mill antisemite?

hadenough,,,,

OBL was linked to the Cole bombing. OBL declared war on the US 3 times and Bill let OBL walk over him like a drunk salior.

Clinton bombed a asprin factory and OBL laughed for the entirety of Clintons tenure. Clinton was a prime example of an infidel.

I guess you have been living in a hole all this time.

Hadenough of hadenough's pure aryan BS

seig heil hadenough

the wackjob hadenough even blamed jews for the fires in santa barbara

The exact phrase it used was "jewish lightning"

Josh-683880

Bush acted like HAMASS in Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, S. Asetia.

You are all Nazi who takes the Agressor's side.

if the shoe fits..............

why do we call it 'Jewish' lightning ??

poor people get kicked out of their homes because of the housing crisis,

and rich people burn their houses down.

I agree , the arabs living in Gaza just wont compromise until they value the lives of all people not just there own. One more thing I find it appaling when I see the arab teachers teaching there children its ok to kill jews and that jews use the blood of arabs children to make matzas , what do the arabs expect when they keep adding fuel to the fire with this type of trash.

The rockets were in response to Israeli airstrikes.
And MSNBC DID mention the rockets fired by Hamas.

Also, it appears there are at least 40, maybe more than 120 Palestinians dead - NO Israelis were killed by Hamas with the rocket strikes.

It seems that to the Likud Party of Israel, Israeli lives are worth exponentially more than Arab ones - and the same attitude comes from many within America.
And it will only ferment further hatred.

2 children dies, 7 and 12 years old...

Even if you don't believe that Israel's policies of oppression cause the Gazans to fight back with rockets, it seems that it should be clear to everyone that, after decades of this, it isn't working for ANYONE involved.

All Israel is doing by attacking on such a large scale is breeding more hatred, more dedicated Palestinian martyrs, and,ultimately, a continuation of the cycle of violence.

Doc, you need to get a life REAL....

If Hamas gave a Rats Ass about the "children", they would stop hiding behind them using them as Human shields. Come out and fight like MEN. BUT the Pussies that they are, they'll continue on as they have.

What Israel needs to do is END IT once and for all. Just wipe them off the face of the Earth! But then, they'll always be someone else to fend off....They have the right to be where they are and will defend that right! They've given up land already, see what that got them? They will not be pushed into never never land again.

My bet is on Israel!

Amen.....let them duke it out...with no outside interference...no more television political courts....fight it out you fricken turds and tell us how it ends...until then shut the f up

fight it out you fricken turds and tell us how it ends...until then shut the f up

And certainly no more help from the U.S. government either.

Hey Florida....I think that is what I said....no US, no IRAN, no Syria support....nobody....who do you think wins that battle?

God(the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob), gave this land to the JEWS.  It was promised thousands of years before it became a reality!  It is called an everlasting covenant in Scripture!  It can never be broken!  Yes, God told them to destroy everything!  The people that lived in Canaan were totally depraved people under God's judgment.  Some even buried their children alive. They were totally wicked, and God said their judgment had come!  No one will destroy God's people! 

Amir.....Like I said...let them duke it out...whoever wins....wins...no support from US, Iran, Syria or anybody else...right?  sounds like we are saying the same thing.  Glad we can agree.....let's meet for a cup of coffee someday my new friend

God(the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob), gave this land to the JEWS.  It was promised thousands of years before it became a reality!  It is called an everlasting covenant in Scripture!  It can never be broken!  Yes, God told them to destroy everything!  The people that lived in Canaan were totally depraved people under God's judgment.  Some even buried their children alive. They were totally wicked, and God said their judgment had come!  No one will destroy God's people!

The strongest will hold on to the land. That's the Rule of Thumb, Then and Now.  The gods of Abraham,Isaac and Yakov promised nothing it is a fiction of the human mind. After 2000 years of claims the god-believer still cannot show evidence of his god and still is waging war in the name of his fictitious god.  The challenge is Mankind itself and its incompetence. Instead of simple admission of 'Not Knowing' at this point in time, Man creates gods and behind the shield of a god it justifies his incompetent atrocious behaviour.

The gods of the Bible, NT and Quran were man-made and are  just a number on the list of 40000 gods Homo Sapiens invented but was never able to prove. As long as Mankind allows Religion and its Clerics to lie and deceive the masses, mankind will continue to be wrapped within its own delusional self-destructive state of mind.

Out present world is shaped by 2000 years of Abrahamic Religious Values. The History of Religion shows the level of insanity mankind is capable of.

" War is the institutionalization of criminality. War can never bring about spiritual improvement because criminality is one of the main causes of mental and spiritual deterioration."

Societies which exalt criminal actions as a noble quest will suffer a rapid deterioration in the mental and spiritual condition of their inhabitants. "Spiritual" doctrines which exalt combat are doctrines which degrade the human race.

Those who have a legitimate cause should therefore be wary of the temptation to assert the rightness of their beliefs in the arena of violent force since their cause may undeservedly lose. There are  many effective methods to promote good causes and make them win, but those methods are seldom used in a world educated to use violence as the ultimate court of appeal. The Crusades and other religious conflicts have often been fueled by the issue of who is a true "messiah" and who is not. Passions can run strong on this topic. It therefore behooves us at this time to discuss what a "messiah" might or might not be.

The title Christ/Messiah means literally covered in oil, Anointed! In 1936 a Polish Anthropologist named Sula Benet discovered that in the original Hebrew text of the Old Testament the word "kaneh bosm" had been translated as calamus by the Greeks when they first rendered the Books in the 3rd century B.C., and then propagated as such in all future translations from the Greek as Hebrew ceased to be a spoken language, not again revived until the 1800's. Benet claimed through substantial research and etymological comparison that the proper translation for "kaneh bosm" is cannabis. In 1980 the Hebrew Institute of Jerusalem confirmed her claim that indeed "kaneh bosm" is cannabis.  The Biblical "Canon" also comes from the Greek "Kanon" which means; to rule, to measure, straight, upright, - and is also derived from the Hebrew word "Kaneh."

In Exodus 30:23 God instructs Moses to use 250 shekels of "kaneh bosm" in the oil used to anoint all Priests, Kings, and Prophets, for all generations to come, including that of Jesus and even today as again, the title Christ/Messiah means literally; covered in oil, Anointed! Kaneh is also listed as an incense tree in Song of Songs 4:14. The mistake was repeated in Isaiah 43:24, Jeremiah 6:20, and Ezekiel 27:19. There are 141 references to anointing and 145 for burning incense in the standard Bible.

With this revelation along with the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Nag Hammadi Library, certain Apocrypha, and a closer examination of the Bible, what we find is that in order to be counted worthy of the title Christian, one must be anointed with the oil as given to Moses. Johns baptism of water is incomplete and any other oil is counterfeit. Jesus came to free the Holy oil and make Priests of all those with eyes to see, ears to hear, and hearts to understand. It's the only way to cleanse yourself in order to face God. The word antichrist means literally; opposed to or against, anointed.

There is water in water, there is Fire in Chrism!

Food, Fuel, Shelter, Medicine, Pleasure, Spirituality, Unity!

The Tree of Life and the Way to God are illegal in this world!

Hell of a trick, huh! Almost like a curse!

No human has to be Einstein to grasp where mankind finds evil.  If slaughtering others and blowing up the planet, any of God's majestic miracles, isn't evil, then where would man find evil?

Some of the folks posting here are worshipping false Gods.  Regardless!  If there should have ever been such a thing as a higher power, he would not bomb or mass murder anyone because the most evolved among us, are advocates for peace, harmony and love.  Warring and bombing are also devastating to man's only home, Earth and all its inhabitants.

Some of the posters here, sound like devil worshippers to me.  Of all of man's Gods, none advocate killing, maiming and hurting one another.  This is something an evil monster would do.  And, history proves, over and over and over, that aggression, bullying and warring breed terrorism, warring and more wars. 

I like that ancient European religion that pre-dates Judism and Christianity that advocated and promoted peace, joy and harmony, "CAUSE NO PAIN; DO NO HARM!"  Now, we are talking any God's paradigm.  "Subvert the Dominant Paradigm", regardless!!

amir,   you and your violent hateful "religious fanatics should be wiped off the Earth for good!!!Not the descent peaceful tolerant Muslims and sraelies .But the psychos who blow themselves up like cowards and those who bomb buildings,cars,etc...,

God Bless Israel and this earth and all its' Nations with eace and love!

Hey White Trash, here's a clue for ya! Why would a sovereign God need to go about inspiring the faithful to war and bully and commit aggression and terrorism? He could do as He did with Eli. Promise there will never be an old man in his line of descendants again, and insert a genetic marker which affects the fulfillment of that promise. He could just make all the palestinians 3 feet tall, and take 100 years to do it. Or He could, as He did with Assryia, let the angel of death pass through.

God is not just a God of peace, He is also a God of war. Those who out of their evil hearts war against Him and His plan and purpose, will be defeated using human agencies, and sometimes with His miraculous intervention. His ways are higher than ours, and who can know them? No matter what you or I or anyone else say's here, He will do what He will do. After all, true salvation comes when we exchange our opinions, thoughts and beliefs for His, yeah?

Levi, we can all worship whomever we choose.  I select a higher being that doesn't place mass murder and mass murderers at the top of his list.

I choose a religion that is 20,000 years old.  When the first Europeans visited the first Californians, they wrote in their journals, they had never met a people who loved each other so much, a people who didn't even possess war weapons.  And, a people who treated Earth as if it were Holy Creation as opposed to a bomb crater!

If we are all going to have Gods, let's aim for the gold and not some narrow-minded, vengeful monster that worships evil, agony, pain and suffering and bombing and killing little, helpless innocent, defenseless children.  And, my God sent an ark to save Holy Creation.  If we must worship, let's pick a kindly, loving, peaceful old soul that has never dipped to the levels of darkness and Satanic worship that seems to rule the world.  If we pass this way but once, let's perform good for we may not pass this way ever again.  Indeed, we only get one chance to worship ethics and basic human decency.  And, a retard can kill, but it takes some brain cells to wage peace and love and understanding. 

Out of the dark pit of archaic societal voices and an ancient worldview that glorified mass murder and mass murderers and arose from nothing more evolved than cavemen beating their chests in the dark of their caves while groping for a light, the current worldview of mass murder seemed to claim its caveman world voice and dominance.  "Duh, get me a club, gotta kill, gotta kill -- causin I can!"   Mankind can do better than this!!!!  Subvert the dominant paradigm and evolve outta the dark.  Step outta that dark, dank cave into the light!  We need to evolve beyond war.  It's time has come!!! 

Levi777:

Actually, the biblical "God" stands in judgement as he allows "satan" to use peace and war to confuse our morality, and test our faith.  The path is spelled out in the commandments:  in stone...  The paths we choose in life highlite our moral fibers.

 The path is narrow, and those close to God should expect to be hated by those who expect US to blindly allow them to break the commandments in the name of nations:  "Call us legion, for we are many."

The true test of faith is the ability to "turn the other cheek":  the person who the christians call Jesus was a hero because when faced with persecution for his beliefs,  he gave himself up to his persecutor even though he knew in advance he would be tortured, and die.  He could have "nuked them to the stone age", as he was the son of god, yet he (in his infinite wisdom), instead chose to be tortured as an example to us all:

  it is better to be tortured and die in vain than to break Gods core commandments, or to succumb to the ideology of another man,  or to spend your life running in fear.

Today, we would call him a "terrorist", and bomb anyone who communicated or "provided material support" to him...

But those who attack the "innocent", are "terrorists".

The choice is ours, individually.  The affectations of worldy intolerance, or the peaceful return to Eden,  beyond the gate of swords (this worlds tribulations).

There is no need to keep "crucifying jesus" so to speak;  this is American 2009, and whitetrash has just as much right to his or her free speech as anyone else,  and a bit more sense than most of the other bloodthirsty minions on this board.

I read the article as saying that the two young Palestinian girls were killed by rockets fired from Gaza towards Israel, one of which fell short.  There is plenty of blame for all sides here.

I'm curious why people think another has the right to STEAL another's property (with NO compensation whatsoever), and the one being put out in the cold has no right to fight for what is his?

Darn, I keep forgetting how thousands of years ago, even though this area was already inhabited, God told the chosen people to go forth and slay every one already living there and the land is yours and for some reason the chosen ones still today believe they have the right to drive people from their land w/o compensating them for it.

And I guess it's only fitting America condones such actions since the new FREE America was built upon the largest genocide in history.

Guess the islamic nations should of pulled out of Israeli lands  they took in the 1st conflict.

crap

Steve

I'm curious why people think another has the right to STEAL another's property (with NO compensation whatsoever), and the one being put out in the cold has no right to fight for what is his?

And I guess it's only fitting America condones such actions since the new FREE America was built upon the largest genocide in history.

The Native American had contact with the outside world LONG BEFORE Columbus arrived. The Native American was subdued by the same method the Native European was subdued 1000 years earlier. The Average European was enslaved to the Industrial era, the children were enduring child labor and slavery when this "white man" entered the "new world". The Native American had a flourishing trade with the outside world from Scandinavia to Russia, China,Japan and the Pacific. It is a specific White creature that entered its shores which moves under the motto God and My Right who changed all values. God and My Right = Religion and Monarchy is a not your average White European neither is it your Average Joe who entered the new world.

Dig a bit deeper and you discover that the "New World" was created upon biblical precepts using Bible/Quran Values.

amir, You sound just like one of them....Here is their response....

Hamas, threatens to resume suicide attacks, they'll never learn!

Bring it on, lets see who wins! Chicken @!$%# little F&%#'s! Better take what ya got and be HAPPY!

Actually, (and I am 1/8th Native American) 95% of all casualties on the American Indian side were from disease. The origin of "Manifest Destiny" is from sermons in the earliest colonies that saw that Indians just died. Remember that this was when people thought disease was a scourge of god.

Plymouth colony was founded in an Indian village with crops planted in the fields, where everyone had died from disease from Europe because of a ship that visited a couple of months before. It had been yielded up by god to the Plymouth colony, or that was their idea. This pattern continued through most of North America.

They are cowards and hide in population centers...Then when their children gets killed in the cross fire there mad..When they begin to really love their children they will stop..They reap what they sow...I couldn't imagine living there (Israel)...You don't know if some nut is going to blow you up when you get on the bus, or eat out at a restaurant.. I would leave there my family is more important...

Steve, great minds, think alike right!  You are so correct.  The USA genocided more Native Americans than Hitler killed Jewish, and it occurred in the land of the free while all these constitutions and bills of rights were being crafted as one nation under God!!!

The Native Californians were pushed almost extinct, entire tribes who didn't even possess war weapons to defend themselves.  Shell mounds in CA show, these people never knew epidemics, famines or major wars, but lived in harmony and peace for mult-thousands of years.  Heay, but what do shell mounds know, anyhoo, right!!

Everything Americans hold sacred and indeed, their religions, are all based upon the genocide of Native Americans.  One man's God is another man's evil monster, all in the eyes of the beholder!!  Heay, evil is evil -- regardless!!! 

The whole thing is human nature to kill each other,  not god, what ever reasoning these groups fnd is a bunch of bull its just what they want, hidding behind god is the most ironic part of all this on all sides, like instant justification for "wiping _— who ever off the face off the earth" its all a lie, giving from the highest positions to be used to send out more armies. for what? money, power, control and force. to this day it goes on. now we posses the ability to destroy the life on earth its self. nukes. some dummy will say cockroaches will live,  so what you wont know will you? its so easy to say use nukes, from your key board. what happens later when your farms wont grow? if you live? die of cancer. you win!!! good for you. I am sure any god would not advocate nuking the world, which is eventually what these crazies all want. does not matter which side you support, or god you love, when it happens. because if Isreal uses nukes the wrold will go to war, and we will use them, too close to russian intrests, (oil) chinese intrests (oil) It will continue fast and even "over there" we will get plenty sick.you cant stop the wind, so as the news fuels the hate. enjoy it as you do, once it goes down real suffering and death will happen, and we will all beg which ever god we believe in for mercy.

Peace, harmony and love begin somewhere; let it begin within me.  What God would bomb a child or nuke the world?

In kindergarten, we all are admonished, to get along with our neighbor.  It worked because we all had to comply.  Inherently, we realized it was the only ethical and sane option.  Somewhere along the way, we devolve behind five year olds in kindergarten. 

Ironically, hours after all these postings, I watched an old 40 yr. old movie where Apes ruled the world, and at the front of their church in the pulpit was their God, a nuclear warhead and a missile/delivery system, only the church service was conducted like any Christian church service.  All the parish sang songs of everything bright and beautiful to traditional Christian songs.  But their God was a nuclear WMD, ready to fire and destroy all of Holy Creation.  Their God was warring, mass murder and a mass murderer, the God that would annihilate the Earth.  Their God was a WMD, bright, shiny and deadly.  And, they loved and worshipped their God, just like everyone worships mass murder and mass murderers.  Only idiots would worship such a God.

It appears that for so many, their God is a shiny, bright WMD and all the lip service and glorification of mass murder is no more a bright, shiny light than a WMD, ready to fire, ready to annihilate!  Even an ape would not worship such evil. 

What are you talking about?! We (Israel) will NEVER use nukes just like the US will never use it, unless attacked by nukes. I don’t know what you know bout Israel but we are an enlightened, modern, responsible, western society. Nuclear weapons are there for one thing and one thing only: for deterrence. The ONLY way that they will ever be used is in case of a counter nuclear attack. And lets all hope that will never ever happen!    

So you're actually saying the ruling Likud Party want peace?

That's a new one!

cinesimon

please stop embarassing yourself,Likud has nothing to do with it.

I'm glad that this board's moderator is doing his job - some moderators allow a free-for-all of obscenity, ad hominem insults, and irrational gibberish.  At least here we only have the irrational gibberish!

These fascist cowards can only drop bombs on people from the sky because they are too scared to fight these freedom fighters who want to free their lands and homes from the occupiers.  Remember how these rats were defeated and kicked out of southern Lebanon recently?  Bombing is all they can do.

I would say its a good think Israeli forces learned from Lebanon and are more wisely tackeling Hamas the terriorests :)

Amir,

I am so sick and tired of Palestinians crying poor mouth. For a while Hamas was firing rockets into Isreal and Isreal did nothing. Now Isreal is doing something about it. Hamas does not want peace, they only want total control and destruction. What bothers me, is that the U.S. gave money to both Isreal and the Palestianians..I don't know about you but I can see the difference. Isreal is floursing while the Palestinians are poor because the politicians take the money. I have no sympathy for the palestinians.

Also if you have not heard (this is for anyone reading this) go to ynet.com Isreal also has taken in wounded palestinians to treat them. Tell me who does that.

Tony,

Take a bow on a reasonable(?) degree of objectivity...it's refreshing :)

Amir,

 The Palestine's are jealous of Israel,plain and simple..Israel has taken a dust bowl and turned it in to an oasis...They could have had peace many times over,and enjoyed a prosperous life...Until Hamas is eradicated and the simple Palestinians gain control of their government,there will be war.. When the common palestinian person voted for Hamas they invited this...

Jellybean.....

The US does that............

jehttp://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2008/12/26/the-rockets-of-hunger-and-israeli-propaganda/llybean,

Read this, this is a view from the other side about Hamas rockets. Just something to think about. You can call it propoganda. But there could also be propoganda from the Israeli side. Two sides to every story. The truth is somewhere in the middle.

I don't know where you're getting you information from but the Likud is NOT the ruling party in Israel, the Kadima party is. Though we are going to vote this coming February and it might all change (and believe it or not all people here, Likud included – even though I'm not a big fan of theirs- do want peace the just don't always agree on how to achieve it)  

When you say "free their land and homes" you mean the country of Israel? because as you may or may not know Israel redrew from the Gaza strip about 6 years ago.

Actually that's not true in relative terms.

The ratio of Palestinian to Israeli deaths is nauseatingly one-sided: Israeli deaths are exponentially lower.

I agree they Hamas to be fired on in response - but Likud and their army pals have a long record of deliberately causing civilian carnage, then saying "don't blame us, it's Hamas we are targeting" - despite the numerous cases of well-identified civilians and journalists being deliberately targeted by the Israeli army.

If they really wanted to just get Hamas, they would - as they have done in the past, with far less civilian blood on their hands.

Apparently it doesn't seem to matter the Israeli people in general HAVE shown restraint for a very long time.  Hamas, Fatah, and every other fringe element have sworn to wipe Israel OFF THE MAP... Whats happened to " To the victors go the spoils" huh?

These Groups use innocent people as target fodder to get world sympathy, apparently it seems to work... The Israelis are being smeared again trying to protect their land and citizens.

But I find it ironic that the people who are screaming BAD ISRAEL BAD fail to take into account that these people are willing to strap BOMBS to their bodies and blow THEMSELVES up... Then start crying when Israel beats them to the punch...DUH.

Frank, I think the Gazans would use tanks and helicopters to do a "respectable killing" if they had them.  :D

Its just that they're on the losing end of a protracted conflict and there is nothing left except suicide bombs.  Palestinians lost the military struggle long ago, bombed back into the stone age.  Essentially we don't respect the arabs because they lost the war and won't let it go.

Bob,

Tanks and helicopters are used to target the MILITARY!  Suicide bombers target CIVILIANS!  Very, very big difference.

trying to protect their land

But since it's not their land in the first place....we now have the current situation.

Tanks and helicopters are used to target the MILITARY!  Suicide bombers target CIVILIANS! 

That's really reaching there...tanks and helicopters shooting at "military" targets in a city full of civilians....well, there's not much distinction there between who actually ends up dieing.  Suicide bombers target, in this case, the civilian population that is directly supporting the military effort.  

In this case, the only way either side is going to win is by:

The complete extermination of the enemy. Something that the religious zealots and/or bigots are activelycheering for to occur...

OR the elimination of the extremiston BOTH sides who are calling the shots and letting the moderates broker a deal for Israel to occupy the land that was not theirs.

Jmac,

And Israeli bombs are targeting "Military"?  well, 120 Palestinians just killed must have been MILITARY!  Outrageous how Zionist supporters use any decetion and distraction they can.

When the Hamas leadership put their military compounds in civilian areas, unfortunately, civilian lives are lost.  How many of the 120 were civilian and how many were Hamas terrorists?

Suicide bombers target, in this case, the civilian population that is directly supporting the military effort. 

Do you think the civilian population in Gaza support the terrorist bombers and terrorists that fire the rockets????

jmac,

The terrorists are the Israelis who are committing the real holocaust in Palestine. Hamas are your terrorists but freedom fighters indeed, fighting for their freedom from occupiers. I am truly disgusted as to the many Pro-Israeli zionists in U.S. (probably AIPAC mouth pieces) who cannot see or deny the truth behind this violent struggle. 

The number killed as of now is 210 and wounded 800. The butchers are at work. Where the hell are so-called Human Rights groups to scream at real human rights violations by this illegitimate terrorist state?

What I would like to know is, where are the human rights groups to protect the crimes and disrespect towards woman in all the extremist muslim nations?

I agree with all who stated America needs to stay out of this. We have our own issues.

amir-594944, Why wasn't Hamas fighting for the Iraqi's freedom from Saddam? Wasn't he a butcher?? You complain about the Israelis but they are one little country surrounded by Arab countries intent on their destruction. Why do you want to destroy Israel? Because of their religious beliefs? Are you screaming as loud when Arab butchers blow up innocent civilians through suicide bombings? Are you voicing your outrage towards violence equally towards the Arabs or Jews? If the civilized world can't distinguish "war combatants" from innocent civilians, as is the case with current Al Qaeda, Hamas, PLO tactics, can you complain when "innocent" civilians are involved? It seems to me that you are as biased in your views as the allegedly "pro-zionist" Americans you complain about. Maybe you need to try and look at both sides rationally so you have a better understanding of how to help solve the problem instead of being a part of it. Just my observation for what it is worth...

Bob, the Arabs were not "bombed back back into the stone age."  Travel to most all of the Arab countries, and you will see that they NEVER have left the stone age.  Without Israel to conveniently blame, the Arab leaders in their countries would have to find a new scapegoat for their abject failure to care for their own people.  And that holds before one goes further to indict the co-conspirator, their religion.

Tony Wlliams

Oilman

6.11 marked as inflammatory

Amir is a brain washed muslim punk....he is a one track mind....he hates jews and Israel. 

Leave the name calling out. I'm back now and the next insult to a fellow poster is history. If you think what they said is dumb just say it's a dumb statement there is no need to hurl insults as where all in titled to our own opinions.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

The comment should be deleted. Tyler would have suspended him, Thanks.  

Tony Wlliams

Trying to give warnings first. Sometimes it works but then again not everyone learns. Thanks for the support and understanding. I've read many of your posts and I find that you to be very honorable.

Tony, I truly understand and agree with your logic. Geez, you got your hands full with an issue like this, good luck, we are supporting you.

My sincere thanks for your comment about my posts, I hate bigots and hypocracy and will not stand for either. I try to be a good guy, an everyday struggle.

Regards, Michael White Bear.

Stolen land? God gave that land to his chosen people. 

This is the mentality behind all bull in this world,  "god" gave CRAP.  The land WAS STOLEN but it was stolen by the Philistines (well the last ones anyway) before that it was seperated into three tribes of JEWS it was known as JUDEA so if anyone stole anything it was the Palestinians. 

Please if you have nothing intelligent to add to the conversation please leave out your CULT mentality which is how most of these idiotic battles start in the first place.  If we removed "god" from all of the worlds conflicts they woulnd't have a leg to stand on. NONE OF THEM. 

I don't know how far back in maps your going but this land was always JEWISH land, from Judea

In , Vespasian and his forces landed in the north of Israel, where they received the submission of Jews from Ptolemais to Sepphoris. The Jewish garrison at Yodfat (Jodeptah) was massacred after a two month siege. By the end of this year, Jewish resistance in the north had been crushed.

In ; the last 900 defenders committed suicide rather than be captured and sold into slavery.

.

In .

"If we removed "god" from all of the worlds conflicts they woulnd't have a leg to stand on. NONE OF THEM."

"Please if you have nothing intelligent to add to the conversation please leave out"

^^

You should follow your own advice. I can name more wars that had nothing to do with God than that had to do with him. Not to mention that regardless of where you are living, the land you're living in was more than likely "stolen" (as you put it) at one point. Israel fought and conquered for the land they are on and now they deserve to live there.

For everyone saying that Israel is in the wrong for killing civilians, I assure you that if the Hamas had better weapons more Israelis would be dead. Ask yourself, if someone was shooting at you with a gun and I killed him would you tell me that I was in the wrong? No, of course not. I would be justified because someone is threatening your life. It's the exact same situation here. Someone is trying to kill Israelis, so their government is killing the aggressors.

For another point, Israel made it clear that they were going to bomb that area. Anyone there that didn't want to be involved should have left or been in cover until it had occurred. 

There is no "chosen people" Ann.  That is a manipulation jews use to extract undue consideration from fundamentalist Christians.  And if "God" gave you that land, he has a really odd way of doing it.  I'm sure "God" engineered the holocaust and WW2 generally as a lending opportunity, so the major powers would feel sympathetic / financially obligated to force a foot in the door over there.

I`m not saying that "God" did or did not give the land to Israel but if he did, I wonder why he didnt find a nicer piece of real estate.

All you people who are busy defending Hamas and other terrorist groups...do you realize that these are people who clapped in joy and celebrated on 9/11 when 3000 Americans died by either being burned alive, buried alive, or jumping to their deaths.

Israel has been living a similar 9/11 nightmare since its birth in 1948. It has the power and the technology now to annihilate these terrorist groups. Do you think that they're going to stop? They won't and I and every reasonable thinking person applauds their actions.

There's a limit to how many times you can hit me and I don't hit back. When that limit is reached...watch out. Israel is a technologically highly advanced, highly sophisticated country whose only goal is to live in peace and protect its citizens. Hamas and other terrorist groups will not be allowed to get in Israel's way. That's just a fact and once these arabs understand that...there will be peace in the Middle East.

Good post.

crap

You wish!  Don't be mad God gave Israel this land as an EVERLASTING covenant! This will be Israel's land until the last battle of good and evil(battle of Armegeddon).  Satan has been doing all he can to stop God's people through the ages!  But he will not succeed!

God gave that land to his chosen people

SO THEY SAY. 

God gave me California, when can i kick everyone out and claim it.

Satan is a zionist.

Marta, learn your history.  Israel was attacked by SIX Arab countries who tried to annihilate her.  Israel won!  They did NOT start the war.  Now, you think, they should play nice and not gain additional land for security (example-Golan Height, West Bank)?  That's not how it works; at least not in recorded history.

Marta,

How do you figure? That land was orginally held by Jews. When occupying armies such as the Assyrians, Persians etc..expelled the Jews from their land. Does your history start after 1900? In BC times that was originally Jewish!. Just like any Arab like Amir Arab history starts with 1900's and today.

Rachel,

Good Post. I couldn't agree with you more.

silly marta . everyone one is on stolen lands . africa 'americas' germany . russia . china .  so life has the " the fittess survive" agreement that has been around at the start of plankton . whatch animal planet more .

To Schwartz,

All you people who are busy defending Hamas and other terrorist groups...do you realize that these are people who clapped in joy and celebrated on 9/11 when 3000 Americans died by either being burned alive, buried alive, or jumping to their deaths.

(The FBI Arrested 20 Israeli's who where clapping across the river when the plans hit)

Israel has been living a similar 9/11 nightmare since its birth in 1948. It has the power and the technology now to annihilate these terrorist groups. Do you think that they're going to stop? They won't and I and every reasonable thinking person applauds their actions.

(Israel is living on stolen land and has committed so many war crimes United Nations condemns them and the world condemns them consistently at the UN. The only reason they are high Tech is because the America supplies them with 3 billion+ Weapons a year to keep their country/economy afloat. They have occupied and tortured the local population for 60 years and committing genocide and ethnic cleansing every day for 60 YERAS!!!! It's a Holocaust like Hitler did to the Jews. He must of felt the same way you do about the Palestinians haha! You and Hitler have some thing in common... genocidal killers)

There's a limit to how many times you can hit me and I don't hit back. When that limit is reached...watch out. Israel is a technologically highly advanced, highly sophisticated country whose only goal is to live in peace and protect its citizens. Hamas and other terrorist groups will not be allowed to get in Israel's way. That's just a fact and once these arabs understand that...there will be peace in the Middle East.

(We are all watching how Israel is pummeling a defenseless women and children, bulldozes there homes, humiliates them on a daily basis, makes them live in squaller, steals there land, and commits genocidal/Holocaust...Yea we are all watching Schwartz and its pathetic!!! We will speak out more and more!! I can already see the difference by the amount of people who are beginning to wake up to these facts.)

You better look out at all the beautiful posts!!! 

If my memory serves me correctly, in the 40's Great Britain  controlled that area of the world and relinquished control to Jewish refugees.

This land was first known as Canaan,

They have nothing else to bomb.  If there were no police, they'd bomb the post office.  The mailman wears a uniform, yeah?

All this is is collective punishment, and in the end it just keeps the issues alive for both sides.  I almost think Israel has a vested interest in keeping the arabs radical.  Its a lot easier to pursue your objectives when you don't have to negotiate with people.

That's better than what all these terrorist group do, they hide behind women, children and innocent people and fight, so that if the innocent get killed they can rally more terrorist because of it. Then they strap bombs on themselves and try to kill as many people as they can without regard that they are innocent people, they just want to kill them because they don't believe as they do.

That's better than what all these terrorist group do, they hide behind women, children and innocent people

so says the pro zionist press.   Ask Rachel Corrie what she saw with her own eyes.

Ohh , you can't she was murdered in cold blood by an Israeli with a bulldozer.

"Ohh , you can't she was murdered in cold blood by an Israeli with a bulldozer"

She was standing in front of a bulldozer...  That'd be like standing out in the middle of the interstate and when you got ran over, complaining about the cars driving.

Rachel Corrie went to Gaza to protest and do whatever she could to stop the fighting. She did not go there to give a 100% completely honest and unbiased assessment of the situation. I think it's a shame that she died and if it was indeed intentional I think it's a despicable thing to do, however, that doesn't mean that I need to pay any more attention to her then anyone else.

The Israeli's have never wanted peace it does not suit their real agenda.

They want to ethnically cleanse the whole area so they can steal more land and keep it a racist nazi Jew Arian state.

If all the Jews coming in would compensate the Palestinians for the land and possessions they steal from them maybe they wouldn't be as mad.

 I wonder what you would do if a foreigner drove up to your house, that has been in your family for centuries, and made you leave and paid you nothing for it, then they cart you off to an area that is already morbidly over populated and then your forced to go thru check points to go to the market, to work, or to the doctor or hospital and on many days when the soldiers are in bad moods you never get to go to work, or you have a wall run thru the middle of your land making you have to go all the way around it to get to your land IF they let you?

Are you aware that Palestinian woman have stood at check points so to get to the hospital to deliver their child, only to be forced to deliver there in the street and the baby dies?

Have YOU been living under brutal occupation for decades ? Have YOU ?

"constant rocket attacks?  Are you referring to the stone=throwing ones?  Oh, poor little Israel!  They are the  personificaton of EVIL on Earth. HowI wish Palestinians had fighter jets, tanks, missiles to fire at israeli civilians too. Then, you could complain because it would be fighting fair and square.

Amir.....damn brother....Palestinians are free to get the equipment they need...let both teams line up on the line of scrimmage and see who wins....I will tell you this, if my team had a an offensive line of guys weighing 100 lbs and the other team's weighed in at 300 lbs....here is what I would do....(a) not play that other team (b) start getting some 300 lb guys and (b) come up with some good trick plays.

Amir.....let them play...and let's see what happens....let the hate come out on the battle field....and no excuses...get the equipment you need and the guys you need for the fight....

Oilman, life is not a game of football. Grow up.

Joe....it was an analogy....wise up

not a great analogy either ..

"Palestinians are free to get the equipment they need" ?? Hahahaha! from whom? You? Ebay? Do you realize the kind of Israeli-supervised concentration camps that these so-called Palestinian "autonomies" really are? People there live in total dependance of Israel for their daily necessities of life - and you suggest that they are "free to get" military equipment that would level the playing field?

Would you back a proposal by the US to provide the same kind of military backing to Palestine, as they have been doing for ages with Israel? Most of the other arab countries in the region are either (a) ruled by sheikhs who are nothing but sellouts to the US, or (b) too useless to do anything other than shout protests or hurl rocks.

Pls go back to watcing your  football on Fox. Do report back to us when you come up with some more entertaining analogies.

Tony,

Have you ever lived in an area where there was constant bombings, or were wounded by a suicide bomber? I have the feeling you never had.

Tony, you are not recognizing the reality of homo sapiens, an inherently violent animal species at the top of the food chain.  Your wish for rational and CIVIL behavior is an oxymoron (unfortunately).  It is a denial of reality.  Suspician and even hate is par for the course among different cultures-certainly not by all people-but by enough to cause chaos in this world.  It appears that some of those of the Muslim faith have raised this level of enmity for all those not of their persuasion to a new level.  This is seen all over the world.  Big problem for those of good will.

Tony,

I like your humanity and gentleness but the scene of war you have seen is very different from what is going on in Palestine. Israelis are a well-equipped war machine and use their sophisticated weapons against an unarmed people who are blockaded, starved, and imprisoned. The only weapon the occupied have are stone, self-sacrifice and handmade rockets which are amazing in light of the total blockade. Put yourself in place of those fighters, then tell me about humanity.

By the way, the Oilman calls me "he" and "muslim" neither of which is correct. some of my comments have been deleted due to "community" who are most vocal Zionists on this panel and I am not surprised. Should I go ahead and mark them as inflammatory too? But i won't because i do believe in freedom of expression.

amir,

 The Palestine's live in a world that they choose...Get this if you go to a fight with a stick and i have a gun you loose.... Arafat did them wrong for so many years,he could have had a state long ago but he wanted to hold on to power...Now Hamas is doing the same thing....The Palestine people  need to rise up against them. 

Hey, Mike, why are you speaking on our (the Israelis) behalf? Do you personally know the people of Israel? Have you ever been to Israel? Talked to Israelis? No? So how can you presume to know what we are all about??? What we want or do not want. If you actually do want to know you can go up to my entry at the top of the page where – as an Israeli who lives in Israel among other Israelis – I wrote exactly how we feel and what we are about (but just between you and I, you are not really interested in the truth are you?).    

PeterB, I don't know if you know this but we left Gaza 6 years ago. it is not under any type of Israeli occupation what so ever, they have complete control of the area.

T.W., I won't argue with what you, and other Israelis you speak for "want", or what you "are all about".  I appreciated reading your posts as to those important issues.

But I will tell you that when Israel retains taxes and other funds that were earmarked for the Palestinian government because Israel did not accept the democratically elected government (with way too many Hamas seats), and builds "a wall" that keeps Palestinians from their own property such as a small business or land for subsistence farming, and controls (and stops) the flow of food, medicine and other life-sustaining goods into Gaza, and controls the ability of Gazans to go out, to their jobs outside of Gaza, it doesn't seem even remotely accurate to post

it is not under any type of Israeli occupation what so ever, they have complete control of the area.

It does not seem honest. 

I don't have the answer to how a just and sustainable peace can be achieved in Israel, but I am reasonably sure it will require more honesty than that. 

As long as you refuse to acknowledge that the people you vilify, fear, attack, and are attacked by have exactly the same needs you and yours have for food, shelter, access to medical care and jobs, security, and human dignity, and you pretend you do not deprive them of that, you cannot negotiate in good faith.  Negotiations for a just and sustainable and secure peace requires good faith on all sides.  You are adamant that there is no good faith on the part of Hamas.  But you don't seem to hold your side to the same standard.  And which one do you have some input and control over?

Dharma,

Israel did build a wall that is true, the reason for the wall (much like the Chinese wall at the time it was build) was to keep terrorist infiltrators out of Israel. Before the wall (and God help me I remember that time well) we had busses explosions on a daily basis, restaurants, clubs, hotels, no where was safe. It was horrible! You do not know what it's like to live like that; I was in Tel Aviv once when a bus exploded not far from where I was we heard the sound of it going off it was horrifying! Ever since that wall has been standing we haven’t had any infiltrations of suicide bombers from that area, we've had several years of quiet, do I think it's not fair to build the wall in the middle of someone's back yard? Yes I do, I also realize that some of the people suffering are farmers and some of them don’t necessary support Hamass and the suicide bombers but the fact is it stopped them from entering Israel. I now know that the wall means our kids can go to school safely, the government wouldn’t have build it if it wasn’t necessary (it has better things to spend millions of dollars on- which is what it cost- believe me) but it does the job and does it well. As for funds some of these funds unfortunately go straight to Hamas to buy weapons and bombs used later on us, and still some funds do go through. I know that at the time of the moderate Abu Mazen government as well as the time of Abu Alla and Yaser Arrafat, the Israeli government did keep funds flowing but you tell me, if someone vows to kill you and use your money to help him do so what would you do, I'll go further then that and say that I think that if Abu Mazen would have stayed in power all of this would never have happened, we were going toward a solution of 2 states and it was all wiped out buy Hamas. The boarders with Israel are very problematic. We realize the Palestinians needs for food and medical supplies and the Israeli government does allow essential supplies in, but Jobs? You mean work in Israel? Do you know how any times we've had suicide bombers posing as regular workers came in to Israel through the border? Do you know how many explosive were strapped on children's or pregnant woman's chests in the Erez border passage in order to smuggle it to Israel? They thought we won't suspect or search a child. Would you take that chance? And you are also forgetting that they do have the Rafiah passage to Egypt which is not under our control. By the way many times we see supplies that go in are later used to create Kassams (did you know that they released a video of a Kassam lab in "action" and some of the ingredients had Hebrew written on them, they were suppose to be used for agricultural needs in Gaza but were never used as such).

To summon up, saying we do not occupy Gaza and that the city it self is under the control of Hamas is not dishonest at all it is the truth, we do control our borders with Gaza (like I said they do have another border with Egypt) and close it when we feel threatened (any country would do the same). The fact of the matter is our border with the west bank were the moderate government of Abu Mazen rules are not closed.

T.W.

You do not know what it's like to live like that;

Very true.  I have dodged the occasional bullet that was meant for me, and been much too close to a few that had nothing to do with me.  That was more than enough for me to figure out that the "risk"--even where the actual danger is less than it feels like--is very hard to live with.  I know that I can't even imagine what it would be like, but that doesn't mean I have no empathy for those of you on both sides who live with that reality.

But you are kind of making my point for me without even realizing it.  However much sympathy you profess for people who are suffering, or even dying, for your ability to say that it is better that way--for the suffering and risk to be on their part rather than yours--you find it acceptable.  In your opinion, apparently, there is no need to stop or even reduce the suffering, only to be sure it is felt by the side that isn't you and yours.  That does not look like the moral high ground to me.

Somewhere in this thread you objected to being called a liar, to being told your posts are dishonest.  I appreciate your point of view, and I am impressed with your willingness to share some very hard stuff on a public thread where people are denying your country's right to exist--maybe even yours.  And I don't get that.  I am not a Christian or Jew, so the Biblical/historical arguments for the existence of Israel are meaningless to me.  It just seems self-serving, not religiously significant, that you can point to some scripture that says God gave you some land, instructed you to take it from those who had built cities on it.  That doesn't look holy, sacred, or religious to me. 

I can buy that Israel has a right to exist simply because it is there NOW.  But not to the exclusion of honesty, or the Gazans or other Palestinians.

It is not the truth that Hamas controls Gaza when Israel calls it "controlling our borders" to take actions that deny Gazans food, potable water, medicines, access to their own means of subsistance, etc.  Your argument that doing that safeguards Israeli lives doesn't change the truth.  The fact that you think giving Israelis the illusion of safety (or even the reality) is simply more important than Gazans being able to EAT, to feed their children, doesn't make for a compelling argument. 

I don't condone (not that anyone is asking) Hamas attempts on Israeli civilians, or declarations that Israel must be destroyed.  It hurts my heart that people can be so blinded by hatred of Israel (or Jews) as to suggest that inadequate rocket attacks that only kill/injure the occasional Israeli somehow don't count, or are justified.  Violence begets violence, not peace or justice.

But the indiscriminate slaughter of Gazans is not less horrific, or more justified.  Targeting anyone OTHER than those who are hurling rockets into Israel is illegal and immoral.  Beyond that, it doesn't work to reduce the danger to Israelis.  I know you disagree with that--but we are having this conversation, after many many Israeli attempts to "shock and awe" and the violence continues.

Dharma,

1. I never pointed to the scriptures to get my affirmation form them, I am not a religious person, I am secular. If I made any references to the scriptures it was to make a historic point only, which is to say that the bible (old and new testament) as well as many other physical evidence indicate that this land was inhabited by the Jewish people long before the Palestinians were here (long before Islam). The reason I made these points is that many Palestinians reject that idea completely, the deny that we were ever here, our peoples history is all over this land, in our language our traditions, symbolizes who we were and define who we are as a people, where we came from. Saying all that is one great lie is like denying us our history, our culture. If you'll read some of my other entries you'll see that we built cities here long before this place was called Israel, when a large part of this land was uninhabited due to lack of water (half of Israel use to be a desolate desert) and marsh/swamp lands infested with Malaria no one would live next to, our people came and died working on that land drying the swamps bringing water to the desert. Some lands were bought and settled in. What happened after the war of independence was something ells (again you can read my other entries).

2. I never said it was better that people are suffering and defiantly not that people are dying, I was talking strictly about the wall, and what I said was the wall is a fence of security for us that has in effect stopped the suicide bombers from infiltrating in to Israel, and for that I am grateful. I wish we didn’t have to have it up, like the US and Canada don’t have one or the European countries but unfortunately we do. And yes, I'm sorry, but If you are talking about the inconvenience (and I know it is) of the fence to the people who's land it crosses against the deaths of a bus full of kids blown up due to a suicide bombers infiltration, which that same fence could have prevented from happening, then yes. If there was another way it would have been great, but after years and years of exploding busses, coffee houses, restaurants, clubs, after years of watching the bodies been picked up piece by piece praying that you wont see any familiar faces in tomorrows newspapers, looking at the funerals, looking at the mothers and fathers crying and the blood stains on the streets, then I'm sorry but yes, it did not cost any lives to build it, no one died because of it, only lives were saves due to it and I thank god it stopped that horrible bloody nightmare.  

3. Food and medical supply were allowed in, as for means of sustenance I suppose you mean work, Are we responsible for the employment of the people of Gaza? Why should I risk our children's lives on a daily bases and "take the chance" of bombs going off? Do you know of any country that would do that? If Mexico was an El Kaida land and the US knew that suicide bombers and terrorist were doing all they can to infiltrate including posing as simple workers sending in women and sometimes even kids do you think that they would just open their arms wide and say "come work here, we will take the occasional bombing, it's OK"??? Do you know anyone that would??? And how about Egypt they have a mutual border with them as well but for some reason no one talks about that. Why are they not responsible for providing jobs, they after all should not be afraid of suicide bombers.

4. And last (and I'm sorry it was so long) I say again, these are things done from lack of choice and desperation, any country will do everything in it's power to protect the lives of it's people, life is so valuable, you only get one go, that is why we are in this mess now, stop the missiles save lives. If we were living anywhere ells where this wasn't necessary things would have been different, but we don't and we have to live with it until (still hopeful) things change, and maybe one day it will be like Europe, who knows.

Have a happy, peaceful new year.

T.W. again, thank you for your response.

1. Apparently I am much more secular than you--I do not accept a biased scripture as "history."  The scientific review of scripture as history has been an interest of mine for many years.  It is definitely a fun read (even with all the footnotes), but I haven't found anything persuasive that I can pick out a fact, or series of facts from scripture and rely on it as history.  Or fact. 

I am sorry if you feel that my view denies your history or culture; that is not my intention.  To the extent that my view actually does that, it is not malicious.  I personally find archaeological evidence for things that there should be evidence of, if they were factual,  more persuasive than a biased Scripture.  The simplest example would be of the Hebrews-in-Egypt and Exodus stories.  There is no archaelogical or historical evidence of an influx of Hebrew slaves being significant in Egyptian history, and Egyptian's were inveterate list-makers and fact-keepers.  I accept that there are at least two reasonable possibilities for there being no such evidence even if the historical correctness of scripture is intact: what the Hebrews found significant and overwhelmingly important to themselves may have meant not so much to the Egyptians.  And all evidence is not in.  (Archaeological evidence can be destroyed, or not yet found.)  But until there is some evidence of it, the Moses story is simply a resonant story to me, and the Exodus has no factual underpinnings.  If it matters, I have the same standard for all scriptures, and I don't deny their potency, even when I do not see fact or history in them.  And I don't deny that your forbears were ever there.  Jewish, Christian and Islamic history is tangled up all over the place in the Holy Land.

MY quarrel with those who cite scripture as history is that it is unnecessary, and pointless to show some allegiance to something so questionable.  Israel is here, NOW.  Israelis NOW need to live with a reasonable amount of safety and security.  That isn't based on any history or faux-history.  We all need that.  Palestinians, too.

2. This is what I think we will simply disagree on:

 I never said it was better that people are suffering and defiantly not that people are dying, I was talking strictly about the wall, and what I said was the wall is a fence of security for us that has in effect stopped the suicide bombers from infiltrating in to Israel, and for that I am grateful. 

You are obviously in deep denial of the effects of Israel's policies on the everyday lives (and deaths) of those in Gaza, and Palestinians in general.  What you espouse as necessary and not killing Palestinians is killing Palestinians.  Palestinians have been denied the money earmarked for them because Israel did not accept their democratically elected Hamas-majority government.  Gaza has been denied food, potable water, and medical aid because Israel DOES control their access to these things and Gazans do not.  Palestinian lives are lost because of this.  There are Israelis who acknowledge this, even some who agree on the immorality of it and fight it--Israelis, who, like you, are right there.  You may choose not to look at this, but that doesn't make your argument persuasive, and impacts your credibility.  I would not agree with you, but I would have more respect for your argument if you did admit that you choose the much underreported Palestinian deaths, malnutrition, and misery over a risk to Israelis.

3.  No matter how you deny it, food and medical supplies are FREQUENTLY NOT ALLOWED IN, and for long periods of time.  Frequently enough that the incompetent rocket-lobbing into Israel might appear to be more a cry for  attention to what is being done to the people of Gaza than an actual threat to Israel.  I will say again, shooting and exploding things are not what I condone.  But many Palestinians believe that posing a threat, however small, to Israeli lives is the ONLY way, except for dying in droves, that their plight receives any attention at all.  Looking at the recent history of the region, I'm afraid I agree.  Not that I think it is acceptable--but that it is all they have.  I don't find it any more acceptable when it is their argument, than when it is yours.

"...means of sustenance..." was referring to access to their own agricultural plots and small businesses being denied, so that they can no longer grow crops (even small ones), or work in their own shops, and being denied the ability to go to work in Israel.  I never suggested that Israelis have a duty to employ Gazans or Palestinians--Israelis DO employ them, and when Gaza is impossible to leave, those inhabitants lose the jobs they have--their means of sustenance for themselves and their families.

As for the border with Egypt, it seems it is, at least some of the time, closed in sync with Israel's actions against Gaza (which you refer to as controlling the borders).  You are mistaken when you post "no one talks about that." Some Palestinians believe it is in agreement with Israel, and still blame Sadat for meeting with Israel.  Mostly, I think people believe it is because Egypt will not accept a flood of starving, or ill Gaza refugees when food and medicine, etc. is not allowed into Gaza.

4.  I think we will disagree on this, as well. 

any country will do everything in it's power to protect the lives of it's people, life is so valuable, you only get one go, that is why we are in this mess now,

This would be more persuasive if there was any indication that Palestinian lives were perceived as having any value at all to Israel.  Think how you feel about any and every Arab state or faction that denies Israel's right to exist.

Israel has made sure that nearly ALL the choices rest with Israel.  While I honestly believe that both sides have the same needs for security, safety, sustenance--as do we all--and that both must have those needs met, Israel has made a career out of (figuratively) poking Arabs in the eye while claiming to tolerate much abuse before responding with devastating force.  While also pretending that the constant oppression of Palestinians--oppression to the point of starvation, for instance--doesn't exist, or isn't their choice.

T.W., ALL of the tactics you claim are not Israel's choice, or deny, when even in the U.S. we know about them, have been tried over and over.  Controlling Palestinian lives, and using that control to starve them, then bombing them when they object to being starved isn't going to change their minds about Israel now.  What you are heading toward is genocide--and saying that is your only choice doesn't make it less genocidal.  And it doesn't make it acceptable unless you believe genocide is acceptable.

The anti-Zionists preached for years that Zionists wanted to carve out a new Israel, to the detriment of the Arabs living there--and when Great Britain, et al. were in control of those lands, that is exactly what happened.  Policies that kill the people you control are not going to change their minds that they MUST resist.  Denial of the harm that you are doing them isn't going to persuade them that what they live and die with isn't happening, as they do not have the luxury of denying what is happening to them.

And thank you, I wish a happy, peaceful new year to all.

Dharma,

Maybe you did not understand what I trying to say. I did not refer to stories of exodus as a fact, Some parts of the old testament is made out of folklore that’s true, I cant be sure which part is based on historical facts and which isn't because for some stories such as Exodus there aren’t many physical evidence. (by the way, the ancient  Egyptians did like to build monuments and write a lot of hieroglyphs on them praising their kings and their lives achievements architecturally and military, but did you know that they have no mentioning of wars lost or embarrassing/bad things that happened, or anything that can shed any bad light on their kings, funny thing is that the Assyrians had fought the Egyptian and both had monuments declaring their glorious victories on one another, if indeed there was an exodus it would not have been considered "something to write about").

How ever what I was taking about is the later parts of the book (kings and so on) that is, in fact, backed up by (as I said) physical evidence such as archeological findings and writings in ancient Hebrew, there's even agricultural colander written in Hebrew on a stone plaque that dates from the 10^th century BCE – it's called "the Gezer Calander" (I'm surprised you are not familiar with the rich radiological findings in Israel that go back 3000 years but If you are interested I would be happy to direct you to some, it is fascinating stuff) and even some evidence from non Jewish sources (such as Assyrian, Babylonian and ancient roman) that refer to the kings and kingdom of Israel. And that is what I mean by physical evidence. (I wrote down in another entry some more archeological findings if you are interested).     

Dharma,

As for the second part of your entry,

We do disagree on several key things,

For one, I do not agree that the people of Gaza should be allowed free excesses to Israel for work while it jeopardizes the lives of the people of Israel, (and by the way a lot less Israelis today are willing to employ Gazans for that reason, they would not take that chance) and as long as there's a risk of suicide bombers infiltrating Israel by pretending to be honest workers, I do not except the actions of those Israelis that employ Gazans and by doing so can put the entire population at risk as legitimate.

Israel does NOT control the Gaza border with Egypt the Egyptians do, but don’t forget that Mobaraq has enough problems at home with the "Muslim brothers" the radical Islamist movement, and probably does not want (understandably) the flowing of radical individuals in to Egypt as well as immigrant movement.

I do strongly believe that food, water and medical supplies MUST be allowed in regularly if the borders are closed, I do not believe that the people should suffer because of the fanatics in power that is a moral obligation, as well as never denying sick men women and children who need hospitalization in Israel (and I don’t know if you know this but if you ever visit the Soroka hospital in Ber Sheva you'll see that many of the patients are in fact Palestinians). How can you say anything about genocide?! The word it self offends me greatly, Genoside by definition is the deliberate obliteration a group of people based on race or ethnicity. We are not and never have been (and never will be) out to destroy and obliterate the Palestinian people!!!, I take offence to the mentioning of that horrid word! That is not what Israel is about, yes, we are doing what we can to protect our peoples lives, that is not to say that our lives are more valuable then Palestinian lives but we are on the defense here, we would love it if there was someone to talk to and change this horrific situation, there is suffering there and suffering here,(people lost their homes here from rockets, lost their livelihood live in constant fear, get hurt and even die) but you acknowledge their suffering and not ours, when in fact they do have the damn key for stopping it all once and for all!

The border with Gaza was not closed for the entire 6 years since Israel left Gaza and the Gaza strip was under Palestinian control, yet we've received nothing but missiles and bombing form there, and even this shot down of the borders started only due to the continues bombings and attacks on us, (which, by the way was what eventually led to the Hamases "Tahdia" or cease fire). You can twist it as much as you want but the fact of the matter is that if there was a moderate government in Gaza today like there is in the west bank, a government that did not carve our destruction on its flag, a government that doesn't have a member of it's ruling party send one of his own children out to be a "shahid"-a suicide bomber- and blow himself up (like The Hamas's Imam Nizar Iyad that sent his son) a government we wont have to fear, if we would have felt safe and unthreatened then non of this would have happened, Non!

Look at the situation at the west bank right now, it is completely different then it is in Gaza, it is better then it has been in years, and I think that once they have their own country with independent infrastructures and economy and if the government keeps on being a moderate modern government that sees the necessity of living side by side in peace, it would get even better and better for all sides involved. Look at Israel and Egypt, once mortal enemies, today there's peace, why do you think that is? Because of one moderate thinker who said maybe they are not so bad, maybe we can live side by side in peace, and that against the objection of many fanatics who wanted death and blood shed, we made some concessions and redrew out off the Sinai desert that was in our position at that time, which might have been dangerous for us since they had control of the Suez canal but we did it because we rather have peace.

If Yasser Arafat had been courageous enough and accepted the proposal for an independent Palestinian state given to him by Baraq at Camp David at 2000 all of this, the death, the suffering, maybe even the Hamas it self wouldn’t have happened. We wanted a way to make peace, we looked for a solution (and many didn’t agree with all that Baraq was willing to give up on). You do not live here and do not know what it's like to live in the shadow of terror! You justify the Palestinian terror by saying it is born of desperation? Well, all our attempts to stop that terror are born of the same thing, desperation. I said it one and I'll say it again, we did not want or ask for this, and would take talks and peace over anything ells but we will not live under constant attacks and in constant fear for our lives. If Hamas wants thins to get better for the people of Gaza they should put down their GUNS!  

Dissent,

The only FAIR solution to bring permanent peace and security to the region is One State with equal rights for all (including the refugees) in an open and free election.

amir, I use to think that a two state solution along the 1967 borders would bring peace.  However, after seeing this map linked below, I have come to believe that "One State with equal rights for all..." seems to be the only fair solution.

Sad to say that as long as the people in the region are not allowed self determination, they will continue to be used in part as pawns in "the Great Game".

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/download/synopsis.pdf

@ Monet-697127

Your statistics link is full with errors. Your folks need to update their input.

I can not help but agree. Is Israel afraid to open the borders in fear of reprisal?

@ Monet-697127

Update Statistics:

onlooker, I said "...after seeing this map linked..." at the site. 

No doubt statistics change and need to be updated.  However, that has nothing to do with the reality of the situation shown by the map I linked, nor my opinion.

What a bunch of racist douche bags. Is no one aware that Israel ILLEGALLY occupies Palestine by force? You blame the oppressed for the violence? for fighting back? These people are fighting for their FREEDOM.  They are not allowed to be their own country. They're not allowed travel freely on their own roads. They're not allowed to stop settlers from building settlements on their land. And you blame them for fighting back? Of course both sides have made mistakes and both have extreme views, but Israel is NOT the victim here. 

Joe,

Please pick up a history book and look up ancient history. The Jews were there first.

Jellybean,

What "history" book do you recommend? The Old Testament, which is the book that Only Jews regard historically as "the truth"?  Is there any other book that would confirm the history as reflected in the old testament as valid?

Amir,

Forget about books, how about the ancient rewinds of Beit Sheaan (the old synagogue with Hebrew writing) dating from 409 AD or maybe we should turn to the Dead Sea or Comeran scrolls (all Torah and other Jewish holly books) in ancient Hebrew and Aramaic all dating back to the first and second century BC (that is much earlier then the appearance of the prophet Muhammad which was not until 570 AD or how about Mesada, the writings of Josepus Plavious (in roman times) which by the way are very detailed –look it up- or the city of Jerusalem the western wall, or how about Jesus and the new testament it also talks about the Jewish people and the Jewish land –since Jesus was Jewish you know- (I can go on and bring you hundreds more if you like) or is this not enough for you?  Oh, and by the way did you know that Muhamad him self talks about the Jews, he didn't like us much because we wouldn't convert to Islam, did you know that allot of the names and stories in the Arab world come from the old testament which you refer to with such contempt, such as the stories of Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses (all In the Curran but all ours first I'm afraid) names like Mosa, Ismael, Abraham, Gibril (all names with Hebrew meanings derived from the ancient Hebrew language the same one our Old testament is written in) just a foot note.

T.W.

Since your giving Bible lessons, will you explain to me, whom Cain married if his mom and dad were the first and only other beings on earth at the time?

I was also wondering how someones DNA could be considered as 1 in a trillion if we all came from the same beginning, first Adam and Eve, then Noah?

steve..Cain married his sister....but the gene pool was pure. THe Bible does not mention all the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve. Neither does it mention all the sons and daughters of Cain or Abel or Seth or Enoch or Irad or Mehujael or Methusael. By the way, Methusael means when he dies it shall come. THe flood was immediately following his death. A great book the forgotten history of western civilization.

Steve J

I wasn’t giving bible lessons; I was making a point that the Jewish people were living in the land of Israel long before 1948 (which was suggested by Mr. Amir). He said the Torah wasn’t a viable proof by it self, and asked what other proof do we have so I gave some archeological evidence (like the 2000 year old Torah scrolls prove that, well, the Jewish people did exist then and they lived on this land). I referred him to out side "Torah" sources such as the Roman historian Josepus Plavious, the New Testament (he doesn’t believe the first edition maybe he'll believe the one) that is dated also about 2000 years back or so. I gave him some proof from their own profit and holy book (where there are references to the Jewish people) and just a few more examples as to how some names that they use and so not have the meaning for came, as much as they will hate to admit it, from us, like Ismail is actually Ishmael and the meaning in Hebrew is:"God heard".

I am not a religious person (I am secular) I believe in evolution (that is not to say there might not be a grater force in the universe), but I don't appreciate false, blind, declaration that you can't backed up with evidence, or closing your eyes to the truth because it doesn’t fit your beliefs and agenda. The fact that the Jewish people inhabited Israel 4000 years ago and were eventually driven off their land is a fact backed up by both physical and historical evidence. And that was my point J

Happy new year to all.   

Koobee, thank you for your response.

-------------------------------------

http : //en.wikipedia DOT org/wiki/Canaan

"The  Hebrew Bible lists borders for the land of Canaan. Numbers 34:2 includes the phrase "the land of Canaan as defined by its borders." The borders are then delineated in Numbers 34:3-12. Present-day Bible scholars, such as Shalom Carmy, suggest that in around 1400 BCE, Jews first arrived in Canaan."

"The urban development of Canaan lagged considerably behind that of Egypt and Mesopotamia and even Syria, where from ca. 3500 BC a sizable city developed at Hamoukar. "

When will people learn, religion isn't evil it's the heart of man that's evil. If God says "don't kill, spread my love" and man kills is that the fault of religion?

If man interprets "spread love" as "they don't believe so let's kill" is that religion's fault?

There has to come a time when man takes responsibility for his actions and his rejection of the principles of spreading peace in the world. Instead of creating a man made system parading itself as religion for the specific purpose of control, power and greed.

Godless systems has been tried and it's ended the same way bloodshed, power, greed, control. Religion tries to change the heart of man and man fears that change.

Your forgetting one thing, MAN CREATED RELIGION.  MAN created "GOD" so therefore he will abuse this and use it to justify just about anything. 

Yet again the heart of man delivering it's own interpretation. God created man. How can man create God when God has always existed? The word says "love your neighbor" yet man tries to justify not to love, because there is no control, power, greed in love, there is only selflessness.

The chance of me offending you is becoming more likely as time goes on, YOUR interpretation is clearly wrong "god" couldn't creat man until MAN created "god" in other words no humans, no "god".  Not only did "god" not exist until man created it, once he did he perverted it, depending on what "men" you talked to and get their version of "god" can you understand what their beef is. 

And yet drugs pour over our southern border daily doing far more damage than 1000 rockets a day would.

good point, Runawaybull.

We wouldn't tolerate it for one second. But these lefties believe it's okay for Jews to be killed! It's easier for them to sympathize with homicidal mediaevial barbarians than a bunch of Jews who they believe should be murdered anyway.

Oh, Steve, how nice and simple for you.

Tony - thank you for keeping some civility in this discussion.  Personal attacks should not be allowed.  You have been more than restrained and given fair warnings.

good job!

winstonturner5   you are a sad excuse for a person

So you see, Isreal was around a lot longer than any Palestine, please people read up on history before making sensless claims, needless to say this land has been fought over for its entire history, who owns what is a sensless argument and leads to no where.  What amazes me ALWAYS is that its a desert, its got no natural resources what-so-ever fighting over it seems a little silly to me. 

I believe you would believe differently if your home and possession was on this desert and another booted you to the street and took all your possessions and stuck you in an already extremely over populated area, with nothing to start over with.

I'll start this off by saying I am not anti-Semitic and this post is not about hatred, rather to make you think by comparison.

First off, Israeli's don't deserve to be blown up on a bus or whatever, for example, or any other way because they are Jewish or Israeli. I understand why there is hatred over there and will make a comparison.

If the US was given back to the Native Americans and the non-Native Americans were put in secured camps and treated as criminals, we (the non-Native Americans) would get highly upset and resentment would cause backlash against Native Americans.

This would not mean that Native Americans would deserve being killed for this, but if you compare what happened when they put Palestinians in internment camps and the like after WWII with what would happen if they gave America back to the Indians. you'd get the point.

Yes, Jewish people had Israel as their own country, but that's back so long ago in biblical times that it's terrible that they forced Palestinians out of their own homes and lands and put them in camps. Again, yes the Jewish people had Israel, but that was some 2,000 years ago and one could say "that was then and this is now."

The Holocaust was horrible, but when the US and Allies forced Palestinians out of their own house, home and country after WWII because of the terrible Holocaust, it was not right either. The Holocaust was horrible, but feeling sorry for the Jewish people and taking it out on Palestinians has created this problem to the current date.

Divide Israel and give half back to Palestinians and prevent further "Occupations" by Israelis, whether on the West Bank or anywhere in their territory. It's the only way and only humane, Godly thing to do.

We being the US have to stop supporting Israel. Again, they don't deserve terrorist attacks, but the Palestinians shoot small rockets into Israel (this does not deserve toleration, mind you!), but when the Palestinians attacks Israel, it's with small munitions and the like and does not kill or injure many Israelis. Again, this is not tolerable, but the Israelis attack Palestinians with F-16s (that we supplied!!!!) dropping huge bombs in Palestine, killing dozens or hundreds. It's so lop-sided and while Palestinians are part of the problem, most people don't view Israelis as terrorists, while their actions prove so.

Again, I'm not anti-Semitic, anti-Israel or the like, I just wonder how we'd be if they gave the US back to the Indians and put us in the same situation as the Palestinians. Israelis don't deserve terrorist attacks, but that doesn't mean they can become terrorists either.

I hope one day there will truly be peace in the middle-East, but Israel has to give a little too.

so steve, are you suggesting we take up arms against the banks?

after all, the scenario you mentioned is happening in the us at an unprecedented rate right now.( people getting booted to the street)

danwill,

"so steve, are you suggesting we take up arms against the banks?"

Too late, they've done been robbed.

If you read Genesis 12 1-7 god said to Abram " to your decendants I will give this land" (verse 7) . But " At that time the Canaanites were in the land" (verse 6).Always Jewish land ? I think not.

Great job Tony!!!!

sorry leftistreporting but i had to say this...

this fight has been going on for decades and, IMO, both the Israelis and the Palestinians are spreading "death and destruction."  further more both are, supposedly, doing it in the name of the same god.  Maybe i need to do more reading but this conflict makes no sense to me logical or other wise.

oneofmany, it's simple. They are not doing it in the name of God. They are doing it for their own reasons and fears. Therein lies the logic and sense.

point taken Vote...to me though, there is no logic and it makes no sense.  i personally can not rationalize the actions of either faction

oneof many... I can rationalize the actions of either faction.  Both sides feel they are right. I suggest Isreal take over any land close enough to fire rockets and make it a no man's buffer zone.  I also would appreciate the USA stop giving anyone foreign aide until all of our national debt is paid.  We need to mind our own business and take care of our own.

 . just curious ? this  mohamad " he called proffit why? seems their own supreme being even calls himself after making monies , gofigure?

Lumbergh:

I love how some people take a few looped clips from mainstream media and then claim it as representative of all Arabs and all of the Middle East.  I also find it rather sick to bring up 9/11 in order to justify grouping of all Arabs and killing them.  If Israel wanted peace, why did they agree to stop building settlements but continue building them?

The deaths are also related to the amount of attacks.

The rejoicing on the streets was a lie - that i well-proven now. One news netword made up a clip of old celebratory footage and sold it as a celebration of 9/11 - but then, that's not hateful towards the Arabs so the truth didn't sell as well to make covergare to low info news consumers I guess!

Do you know what Hamas do, apart from fighting Israel?

CAN YOU THINK OF ANY REASON THEY MIGHT ACTUALLY WANT TO BE IN CIVILIAN AREAS? POLICE STATIONS? SCHOOLS? FOOD DISTRIBUTION? DOLE?